An Interview With Christine Goerke
I so enjoyed getting to interview Christine Goerke, dramatic soprano and Brünnhilde extraordinaire! On top of that, she's the polar opposite of a "diva," down-to-earth and easily one of the funniest people in opera. Enjoy our conversation about why opera isn't stuffy or elitist, characters like Brünnhilde and Ortrud in Lohengrin, and her vocal transformation at 32 that almost led her to retire.
Note: I opted not to use any of Christine’s recordings in this interview because, being a perfectionist, she can’t stand listening to herself, and I would like for her to be able to watch her own interview! Instead, I’ve linked some clips in the relevant sections.
This interview has been lightly edited for length and clarity.
Violette: You said you want to sing more modern opera (you've already sung "Florencia en el Amazonas"). How is that panning out? Has the Met commissioned something for you?
Christine: I can't say that that is the case. I can say that there is something in the works, and you may or may not be seeing it closer to home, and I am still waiting for more information about finalization, but the way I have always wanted to be involved since there's so much new commissioning going on, which I think is so far past time. We have so many amazingly talented composers, and I am excited to see how much new repertoire we are adding to our canon. Not a lot of composers have written for dramatic soprano; it's often been at, sort of, really extremes the way that composers have been writing, and so I am at the very least excited to say that there is somebody that I admire very much who is currently working on a role for me. I don't know exactly when it's going to come to fruition, but I'm excited that it's in the works, at least.
So during your early career, you were a lyric soprano and you sang Mozart and Handel. Tell us about the vocal transformation that led to you becoming a dramatic soprano.
Well, it was completely crazy. From the time I was about 24 years old, people were already using the term “dramatic soprano” in talking about me. My teacher told me to, literally, stick my fingers in my ears because “at some point that might be, but today no.” So, she kept me very safe, which was exactly the right thing to do, but of course, you know, the moment someone tells you not to do something, you go do it. So I started reading up on the voice type, and, potentially, how things will change and when they will change. The things that I read kind of alluded to the fact that in your late 30s, early 40s, there would be a big switch and then you'd revamp your technique and move into bigger repertoire. That's not how it happened for me. I was about 32 and I was opening the New York City Opera season with Handel's Alcina, which should have been a walk in the park for me; that was absolutely what I did. It just didn't feel right, and I couldn't even explain what was wrong. I was working very hard, I always did, I practiced constantly, I was warming up the way I always did, but something didn't feel right. I was 32 years old and so I thought, “Well, I've broken it. This has been fun, I didn't expect to even have this career. I guess that's what I get, and now I'll just go and see if I can't find somebody and get married and have babies,” which is what I'd always planned to do anyway. Turns out that my voice really started to shift very early, and it really sort of stands to reason and I tell everyone that “Your path is yours, your voice will do what your voice does.” There is no set way for voices to grow, and I found that out very publicly. I started to revamp my technique, I changed teachers, and I started studying the Hochdramatischer repertoire. And I was so grateful to the Met because, in fact, not only did they keep me safe for three years in the Lindemann program, but I also was able to understudy a great many of the roles that would be coming in my future while I was starting to learn this new technique and move into this repertoire. So it was a really great learning experience for me, and one of my first sort of big-girl roles was singing Third Norn at the Met, and that was really my first step out onto the stage with a huge orchestra. And the moment I started to sing with that huge orchestra, I felt like I found my voice for the first time.
That's incredible. So, you told the Screaming Divas that you're a problem solver rather than someone prone to depression. That seems very much you! How did you cope with this sudden change in your voice?
Christine in Die Frau ohne Schatten (Ken Howard/Met Opera)
Oh, that was terrifying. That was not the time that I immediately went to problem-solving mode, I must admit. I did try to solve the problem, and nothing I could do could allow me to solve it, and — not to go into all the vocal technique of it all, but my voice started to get bigger, so little by little, I didn't even realize I was doing this, but I started coming off of my support to try and keep it small. I'm here to tell you, for anybody who wants to try that: Don't. It doesn't work! It just makes more problems. But at the time — it was such a small thing but I could not figure that out, and so I was really depressed. I was sad, I was embarrassed. You know, it's one thing to have a change, it's another to have it done really publicly, and there was an article in OperaNews which, to this day, I am still angry about, because the words “vocal crisis” were in that article. I am here to tell you and everyone else: A change in voice type does not mean crisis. It means that you are changing and growing, and I would like everyone to have the ability to find their path without someone thinking that their voice is falling apart. I fought that for years after that article, and it wasn't until 2013, when the opening night of Frau at the Met. I remember coming off stage after those bows, and it was a surreal moment. The audience went insane and I couldn't believe it, I wasn't expecting it, and there was an amazing, most lovely human being in Artistic at the Met named Judy Montgomery, and she was backstage and I threw my arms around her, sobbing, saying, “No one will ask if I'm broken anymore.” So it was a very big shift, it was not just a big shift vocally, it had to be a big shift mentally for me, and people do go through changes and there's so much more than what the public sees because we don't want them to see that part, right? So it was a harrowing journey, but also, I wouldn't be who I am without that, so in a way, I'm very grateful for it.
How has your interpretation of Brünnhilde changed since the first time you sang her?
Christine in Die Walküre (Richard Termine/Met Opera)
Oh my gosh, I mean… I think she is the biggest gift of a character you have. For her, it's the span of days! All of what you see of her — you know, she's sleeping for a little bit — but for her, in consequence, it's only a couple of days in her life. And she goes from being this know-it-all teen, who just doesn't understand anything about anything, to having lived an entire life in the course of a couple of days and gaining the wisdom that we gain over a lifetime. And the first time that I sang her, I thought about all of these things, but I will tell you, you get out on stage for that first time, you hear that orchestra, there are a million things to think about and a lot of them are musical. So every time I had the opportunity to sing her again, I had more opportunity to know that the music was settled and I could really think about the character. Every one of us has this person inside of them. We've all been that teenager who thinks that they know everything better than their parents, we've all been that person who has loved somebody so much and seen them fall off a pedestal and realize that they're human, we have all been somebody who has fallen in love and been hurt, we have all been somebody who has seen injustice and want to do something about it and know that sometimes it takes sacrifice. It's this little microcosm of this huge story, so I feel like every day that I live I have something new to bring to that entire story. It changes every time.
So this season at the Met, you jumped into Mme. Lidoine in Poulenc’s Dialogues des Carmélites, and then you took on Ortrud in Wagner’s Lohengrin.
Which are almost the same! [Laughs]
So much has changed since you sang Mme. Lidoine 20 years ago in this production.
20 years ago.
How does it feel to come back to her now?
Christine in Dialogues des Carmélites (Marty Sohl/Met Opera)
Well, I'm not gonna lie, I was so excited to get to come back to her. I had done her last year in Houston, so it was still fresh in my mind, but it is officially the role that I have sung the longest in my life, I think. I've been singing her for 25 years, and — yeah, I know, since older than you are! — it is amazing to me because the first time that I sang her, I found a lot of innocence in her, and as time went on, my idea of who she is and knowing what I know of the Carmelites and the actual truth of the story, my impression of her has changed every single time I have taken her on, and now, being a mother myself, now it is impossible to make it through that last aria talking about, you know, losing your children and I see you all as children, and it means something different. So, I don't know, it has been an amazing journey with that role and I'm so, so sorry that I was asked to jump in, that there was a last-minute replacement, but the idea of being asked to step into this cast with these amazing women — it was just such an unbelievable gift.
I think that might have been the most stupendous cast of the season, and that’s saying a lot because this season has been So Fabulous.
I mean, Alice Coote. Alice Coote! [Violette squeals] Oh my God, she opened her mouth and she's like, “Well, you know, this is the first time I'm doing this,” and I was like, “Shut up. Just shut up! I’m backstage crying, be quiet!!” [Laughs]
Do you get emotional during arias and cry during them sometimes?
Oh yeah. This is the thing that I learned very early on. I do go too far sometimes, but you know what happens, you start crying all of a sudden, your voice starts to catch. The game, and our actual job, is to get right up to that line and not go over. You go over and it affects your throat, but if you’re right up to it, right here before the emotion starts, that is where our job lies, and I will tell you that I didn't get through one performance without crying after the final aria was over, before they came in for the guillotine. Thank God, all the ladies were standing in the dark but I was up there sobbing every single night.
That’s beautiful. So now, what about Ortrud? What does she mean to you? She’s very clearly the villain. How do you keep her from being one-dimensional?
Christine in Lohengrin (Marty Sohl/Met Opera)
Weeeeell, is she the villain, or should she have been on the throne in the first place, I mean, you know? I always look at any villain — I always start by saying, “Obviously, they're not the villain, they are right, and they have been wronged.” So the thing is, if they just would have allowed her ancestor to stay as, you know, a pagan king, we wouldn't have any of these problems and I wouldn't have had to try and kill anybody. So, really, it's their fault.
I think that when you do a character, you always have to try to justify them to yourself because otherwise it's hard to connect with them.
Well, that's it; it's not just to connect with them for me. I kind of love doing these characters that are really difficult, because if I can get one person in the audience, not necessarily to like them, but to understand why they are behaving the way that they are and that there is justification, then I have done my job. For me, I have to come in and I have to find the reasoning. So: Yes, Ortrud is definitely scheming, yes, she is horribly political, yes, she is definitely lying a little bit, but she knows that her family was supposed to be in that ruling class and that is what she is fighting for. But it's so much fun to play her, she's so awful! [Laughs]
It was so much fun to see you play her, it was so engrossing. Even when you weren't singing!
So, that I was surprised by, I have to admit. You know, in case anyone thinks that all of that lurking around and crazy hand gestures were me, that was not. That’s exactly what I was directed to do. But, in fact, we had a joke about it: I was constantly asked to sort of keep my hands like this [curls two fingers into a claw] and we said, you know, it was the Crow, so every time I came in the room, we all just went “Caw-caw!” But it was an idea to make sure that there was a real physicality in the language and a language that is the physicality.
Christine in Lohengrin (Marty Sohl/Met Opera)
[Director François Girard] had me on all the time. And he said, “So you're in Act 3,” and I said, “No, I'm getting a coffee in Act 3, I come in for the last three pages.” He goes, “No.” So now I'm in the entire show, and the conversation revolved around the fact that the first thing I said was “I do not want to pull focus from my colleagues, because the storytelling is happening over here,” and he insisted that the storytelling was happening in both places. So I hope that I was able to achieve what he was asking for without trying to pull focus from anybody, but it was definitely more than I thought I was bargaining for. It was a lot of fun.
I love the crazy hand gestures, I thought they were awesome! [True!] Now, you used to be an introvert.
I did. [Laughs] I know that sounds completely bananas. I would still say that I am an extroverted introvert. I can turn it on, I can be okay in big crowds, I can do everything that I need to do. At some point, my batteries die and I need to go hide for a day and just be by myself and get everything back together again so that I can go out and do it again the next day. I think that there are a lot of us, actually, in this business. We know how to survive, we know how to be in a crowd, we need — we know how to be in front of people, but at some point we need to sort of go back in the cocoon so that we can think and create, if that makes any sense?
Yeah, it does! So how and when did you become an extroverted introvert rather than an introverted introvert?
[Laughs] I was a horribly introverted introvert all the way through high school, when I got into college. I think it's honestly when I started to sing, which is college, and I realized that I had no choice but to be able to interact with a lot of people because that was going to be part of my job. So I slowly started to understand how to function, but also really started to understand that I needed time to recharge, and I think I got really good at it by the time I was out of the program at the Met, so…
You're the Associate Artistic Director of the Detroit Opera. What’s your vision for the company?
Well, I will tell you, in case anybody hasn't caught on, we have absolutely made a hard left turn under the Artistic Directorship of Yuval Sharon, and we are really going out of our way to do new and interesting works and taking a new look at traditional pieces, as far as the kind of productions that we're bringing to Detroit. I am excited about the fact that one of the things that we are leaning hard into and something that means a lot to me is really trying to pull up and uplift American singers. I brought up New York City Opera a while ago, and I know that there is still a New York City Opera, it's different than it was when it was across the plaza from the Met, but, you know, in the ‘70s and the ‘80s this was the place that all of the American singers would go and train and get visibility, and I don't know that we have anything like that now, and so my goal is to do my very best to be proud of American singers. Every country in the world is really proud of their own and I want to make sure that we're doing the same.
How is the Met Opera special to you?
I don't know if we have enough time for this question. Aside from being a New Yorker, aside from that being my house, as a New Yorker and being proud to be, I will always be a New Yorker — sorry, Michigan, I really will be, though, as you can't take that out of my soul — the first opera I ever saw was — I was 13 years old and flipping through the channels, and I came across something on PBS and my father came a piece of “What are you watching?” And I said, “I don't know, I think it's an opera?” Never seen an opera; it was, of all things, Francesca da Rimini with Scotto and Domingo, and that is the thing that I saw on a little black-and-white television that made me fall in love with this at the Metropolitan Opera. Aside from just sitting on the fountain, thinking Maybe someday I could get to sing there, it would be amazing, but I never really thought it would happen. Getting to be a part of the training program there — I wouldn't be anywhere without them, I truly wouldn't be. I have family in that place that spans 25 years now, and they are still family and I still know the same people there, and once you're part of the family there, you are never not part of the family there. So it's been such an honor to be in contact with this theater in any way, shape, or form. I've been there for training, I've been there to make debuts, I have changed repertoire there during the pandemic, you know, took on another role to help support the company and did [expertly hosted] all of the HD recital broadcasts, since I was nearby, and it just — it is the place that I've had the most contact with, the place that feels like it's the most in my heart and in my career. It’s the place that will always feel like home.
Are your daughters into opera too, or just when you're singing?
They're interested in the theater of it. My eldest is more interested than my little one. My little one is just SNL-type funny. I try to be mom, and, like, you know, I'm like, “You can't this,” and she'll just look at me and I'll fall apart. I'm a disaster! She knows how to play me like a piano. My eldest, though, she's my theater kid, and she's not, like, hardcore into opera, but when I was learning Brünnhilde, she was about seven, and, you know, I would put it on my big-screen TV in my living room and I would sit with my score — because watching something for me, even if it's not the same production, helps me memorize — and of course, I was watching the Schenk production on Met Opera on Demand, and she came in and plunked herself down on the couch next to me. “Mom, is that her dad?” “Yeah, that's her dad.” “Why is he so mad?” I said, “Well, because she didn't listen to him.” She goes, like, “Pffff!” That's my entire life right there! But she sat there listening and paying attention, and she's really interested in the storytelling, she's interested in the theatrics of it all. For example, she will say, “Okay, you're going to do Elektra. Is it the one with the blood running down the stairs?” And I was like, “No, it's a different one.” “Oh, then I'm not coming.” All right, you know! So she's into [the] theatrics of it, but it's cool, they will come, they're proud of me, I know they are. As long as music is in their lives, I'm so cool with it, so, you know, I'll take that she's proud of me.
They should be! What would you say to people who think opera is boring or elitist?
Oh, boy. The thing is, I try to remind everybody how this art form started. This art form started as art for the people, it's entertainment for the people, for all people. So, my favorite thing to do, and I started doing this and my colleagues here don't quite know what to make of me: I'll turn up for things in, sort of, my white trainers and some comfy clothes and not get all fancy dressed up, and I will come out of the theater in a jean jacket and t-shirt, and they don't know what to make of that. And what I had to say was, “This is what we want to show people. We want to show people that you're welcome in a ballgown and a tux, you are welcome in your sneakers and your jeans, you are welcome in whatever you want to wear. I have to dress up, you don't.” We are now going out of our way to tell stories that matter to everyone. We're going out of our way to make sure that there is a rainbow of humanity on stage and that the casting — when everyone walks in the door, they see themselves on stage, that we talk about our entire society and not just look at this through one lens. So, it is not elitist, it is not boring. I mean, blood running down the stairs! I mean, if my 16-year-old thinks that's cool, y'all can come and make it through that. I think it's unbelievably cool, I always have, I always will, and I will be a cheerleader for opera forever.
What can we do to keep opera thriving for your girls’ generation?
Yeah, so this is a long conversation. I'm a mom before I'm everything else, and when I was growing up, you know, they carted us out of, you know, junior high school and threw us on a school bus and drove us to Lincoln Center and took us to Young People's Concerts at, you know, what was then Avery Fisher is now Geffen Hall. I was — I had exposure to the arts and it was part of my schooling. We already now have an entire generation of young ticket buyers, young potential audience members, young people who are interested in potential philanthropy but don't understand why the arts are important because we've told them it isn't, because it's been voted out of school boards. We don't have education in the schools anymore, it's falling on the organizations the big arts organizations. The Met has a wonderful education and outreach, but it's falling on us to get into the community and show people what we are and why we're important and explain to everyone and give people access to things. If we can get people in the door, I guarantee you'll be hooked because it's so — I keep saying it's cool, but it is! All we have to do is give people exposure to it. I don't think people understand what the visceral, incredible thing that happens when you hear unamplified voices coming at you like that. It makes my hair stand on end thinking about it, so we have to just get them in the door. That's the game for me.
